What isn't mentioned is that bananas and other potassium-rich foods are alkaline, and so can neutralize stomach acid reflux. Acid reflux is a common source of poor sleep quality. So that could be one explanation for the fewer sleep disturbances.
Reflux is solved by MORE acidity or promotion of stomach acid. Lower stomach acid PH means the LES doesn’t close properly. Seems counter intuitive but took me 8 years of symptoms to discover.
Not every case of reflux is caused by the same things. Some people's esophageal sphincter (such as mine does) just... decides to let go at random times. For me, that I can tell, the frequency of that happening isn't really affected +/- by the PH of my stomach acid, but the PH sure has an effect on the consequences.
I am assuming the best thing I can do for it is lose weight, but that's easier said than done.
If you've tried the traditional diet and exercise and couldn't stick to it, don't let the stigma around glp-1s keep you from taking to your doctor about them. They are a powerful tool. Really helped me
I think this is true for a long term solution, but the standard treatment to alleviate symptoms of reflux is to consume antacids, so I think parent's point is still valid.
Whenever I see discussions of GERD I like to bring up this paper (and the reedit discussion around it) where they basically tried a supplement with every likely helper and it worked 100% of the time: https://www.reddit.com/r/GERD/comments/adt6vh/regression_of_...
| The aim of this study was to investigate if a dietary supplementation containing: melatonin, l-tryptophan, vitamin B6, folic acid, vitamin B12, methionine and betaine would help patients with GERD,
| All patients of the group A (100%) reported a complete regression of symptoms after 40 days of treatment. On the other hand, 115 subjects (65.7%) of the omeprazole reported regression of symptoms in the same period
Huh. I am admittedly neither a doctor nor chemist, but I was told this by a doctor, and anecdotally bananas seem to help me with reflux. Looking on the web, there does seem to be conflicting advice.
I'd heard claims like that before and I was curious so I googled a bit more.
It sounds like there's this thing "PRAL" or "potential renal acid load" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_renal_acid_load where the affect on stomach acid can be different from a food's pH. But again, the wikipedia article links to some random people's blogs and a single research article from 2019. I'm not sure if this is well supported by research.
Exactly- this is based on how it alters urine pH, and there is a whole alternative medicine thing around assuming this is extremely important- but the entire idea seems unconvincing to me. Both stomach and blood pH are carefully regulated by feedback control and don’t themselves change much based on foods.
It is extreemly important because it is easy to measure and varies wildly based on concious decisions: things that make it easier to sell the snake oil. Blood pressure is another. Many a "tonic" of flavored alcohol seemingly cured symptoms of high blood pressure... long enough to make the sale.
I can see why the directly observable effect could help here, but what are these “alkaline diet” people selling exactly? I’ve mostly seen it just from individuals giving me unsolicited health advice. Also are these people really measuring the pH of their urine?
Acid reflux is due to too low stomach acid (too high pH). The lower esophageal sphincter closing as a response to acid (pH) is documented in the literature.
I wouldn't read too much into the title, the closing parts of the article give a much more balanced take on the whole issue. This study disagrees with some previous work and it's unclear which result makes sense and why. As usual, more research is needed, and while a catchy title is nice, this isn't anything to change your dietary habits by,
On one hand, if I squint hard enough, I can almost see it, but not exactly for the reasons they propose. Potatoes are infamous for having an extremely high satiety index, that is, you feel very full after eating them. If that holds, it would be easy to see how it could lead to weight loss, since you would feel full earlier and thus eat less.
All that aside, almost all of the results they show are deep within statistical error bounds. My weight easily varies 5lbs (2kg) within a week, saying you lost that amount after a month of diet doesn't really say much to me. I could weigh myself a week from now and say I lost that, then one week on and say I regained it.
I know this isn't related to potassium directly, but anecdotally I have had success using magnesium supplements for insomnia/improving general sleep quality. I have also been consuming electrolyte mixes containing potassium to help with muscle recovery from training, and have found them to help with physical soreness & general well-being.
I also believe I have an underlying kidney disorder that was causing all sorts of subtle problems and after researching for years decided to try potassium supplements and it relieved the acute symptoms I was having (daytime sleepiness after meals) and also a whole slew of symptoms I didn’t realize I was having (poor workout performance and recovery, constant thirst from sodium/potassium imbalance, heart palpitations, especially at night when lying in bed, temperature regulation when trying to sleep, restless legs at night, and sleep quality).
Sleep was the most surprising. I used to wake at around 3am and just couldn’t get back to sleep. I still wake up to pee, but I get right back to sleep.
The single most surprising thing is the quality of my sleep. I now sleep like a rock. So unbelievably hard. And when I wake I feel so rested and more clear headed. I don’t need to sleep as many hours anymore and feel better than when i would sleep 9 hours.
Recently several sleep studies started talking about how sleep is not a passive activity, but a ‘washing’ of CSF over your brain. I could get some details wrong since I am going off of memory, but I believe the amount of CSF movement and production basically triples when you sleep. I hypothesize that this is simply your bodies way of cleaning the waste products out of your brain. Do you know what precursors are to create CSF? Electrolytes like sodium, potassium, chloride, and bicarbonate. It is my hypothesis that I was ‘using up’ all the potassium available with the first couple of sleep cycles and once it was gone I was unable to effectively create more CSF, rendering my sleep ineffective.
All I need to take is a couple of 99mg tablets right before bed (along with some magnesium chloride) and I sleep like I did when I was 10. I am 57. To say it has transformed my life would be an understatement.
I have every single one of your symptoms and arrived at almost the same conclusion: taking electrolytes tablets intended for workout recovery (just sodium, magnesium and potassium, no sugar) improves alleviates almost all of my symptoms and gives me energy I haven't had since I was 12. I haven't been able to get a doctor to take me seriously for ten years. I will try the potassium + magnesium tablets at night instead of a generic multivitamin. Thank you so much for your comment.
Do you have any additional information about this relationship between CSF and electrolyte deficiency? Do you know anything about possible upstream causes of electrolyte deficiency? Any pointers would be super helpful.
I also started with general “electrolytes” but found that one of my problems was that I was getting way too much sodium and not enough potassium. This was the primary driver of my post-meal somnolence. Most general electrolyte supplements are primarily sodium, and this was exacerbating my symptoms in some cases. I now only eat meals that have a reasonable amount of sodium and then take a couple of potassium tablets a couple of hours after eating if I feel myself starting to get a little sleepy. 30 minutes later I am ‘back to normal’, whereas I used to be sleepy for several hours as my body tried to bring my electrolytes back into balance. I also would have massive unquenchable thirst during this that I now don’t have.
I have read no studies that link CSF production with electrolyte deficiencies. This is a hypothesis of my own with no backing, so take it for what it is worth. Having said that, there have been many posts on HN on the recent studies on CSF https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39723704. I made the connection with CSF production and electrolytes when I was reading more about CSF production and it jumped off the page at me that potassium and other electrolytes are used to create CSF. It all just came together for me why taking potassium has helped me so much.
Sorry, you asked about ‘possible upstream causes of electrolyte deficiency’.
In my case I believe it is caused by an undiagnosed kidney problem loosely called ‘salt-wasting syndrome’. There are many types, but they all revolve around a genetic disorder where the tubules in your kidneys that are responsible for removing different electrolytes from the urine and retaining them are malformed and are not able to keep the electrolytes like a normal kidney does. Here are a few I found in my research:
I my particular case, I believe I have a type that does not impact sodium, but does potassium. When I eat a high sodium meal it causes me to pee a lot to try to get the my sodium levels back to normal. However, my body can’t retain potassium when it does this (and since I was eating much more sodium and much less potassium than my body required) I end up with normal sodium levels but low potassium levels. Taking potassium a few hours after a meal “fixed” this.
Short of genetic issue like this I am not sure what could cause it. I think this can be an early symptom of Diabetes, but don’t know much about that. What I am talking about here has got to be rare, so it may not be applicable to you.
Just another anecdote – when reading some of these links it made me remember another interesting symptom I used to have that I did not know was related: I would get “facial numbness”. Specifically, my lips and the immediate surrounding area would feel slightly numb. Usually in the morning after a poor night of sleep. I would remember feeling this on the way to work in the car. It would contribute to that dazed feeling I felt like I would swimming through a mental fog.
Oh, and one more! I also don’t get nearly so hung over from drinking! This was a surprise for me. I have always drank a lot of water while drinking alcohol, but I would always have the worst drained feeling the next day with such a headache. The headache would last all day. However, if I now take some potassium while drinking and throughout the night (depending on how much I drink), I often don’t have much of a hangover. This amazes me! I am 57 and used to drink a lot when I was in my 20’s. I had some friends that could be normal the next day and it always blew my mind. Now I think I know why. They have normal kidneys!
Not OP but I've had luck with zinc and magnesium aspartate supplements commonly available on Amazon. I take two caps that each are a net about 500mg an hour before bed, along with 1mg of melatonin.
You need to be a bit careful with zinc. A doctor friend of mine compiled a load of data showing most zinc supplements are contaminated with cadmium, which is cumulative. I'm not sure if he's published yet.
Thanks for sharing- I find that these type of anecdotes often do work for other people, and are not information people can get from a doctor. I’m going to try what you suggest myself- I also tend to wake up at night and not fall back asleep, with no obvious explanation.
That doesn’t tell you a lot. You would have to take a bath with and without magnesium, and without knowing whether it’s with or without magnesium, and then write down the effect for each bath.
Currently, it could just be the effect of the bath itself or placebo.
If you took a bath in hot water, that has its own effects on the body, as it will lower your blood pressure, it can also relax your muscles, so you need to try it out without the magnesium to see if it did anything.
Depends what you mean by 'general supplement' but a majority of people are deficient in magnesium (~400 mg/d is the recommendation) and its ubiquitous involvement in hundreds of enzyme systems might reasonably indicate that a positive role in normal sleep patterns could be expected as reported in a number of publications. If there is no benefit then other factors are likely to be to the fore.
I experience muscle cramps. (Not restless leg syndrome. It's complicated.)
For others, be aware that magnesium supplements come in many forms. I don't tolerate magnesium citrate, the most common over the counter option. Tummy issues. After trying a handful of options, I chose magnesium glycine; no adverse effects and reasonable price.
This is not medical advice. YMMV. Consult your doctors.
PSA: before you start supplementing potassium (or gorging on bananans or potatoes), please be aware that too moch potassium can lead to heart rhythm disturbances, and that some common medications (like anti-hypertensives) can have further predispose you to developing hyperkalemia.
While true, this is overblown. RDA for potassium intake is 3500-5000mg daily for an adult male. Most people do not get close to this amount. Potassium supplements are 99mg per pill. You have to take a lot of pills to reach that level. Getting too much potassium by eating potassium-rich foods would be difficult without an underlying kidney disorder.
Having said that, don’t be a dumb-a* and take too much of a good thing.
It depends on how you take it. If you chug almost liter of coconut water (like I did) you can get palpitations (like I did). That has >500mg potassium in a form more bioavailable than say a banana or butternut squash.
Also the RDA is not something you should have all at once. That’s a sure way to disrupt your heart.
> The sleep disturbances were assessed using the Athens Insomnia Scale [ 19], a self-administered psychometric questionnaire designed to evaluate sleep disorders, particularly insomnia [ 20 ]. It consists of eight items rated on a Likert scale ranging from 0 “no problem at all” to 3 “very severe” [ 20]. The total score ranges from 0 (absence of any sleep-related problems) to 24 (the most severe degree of insomnia). Severity is classified as normal for scores of 3 or less, subclinical insomnia for scores of greater than 3 but less than 6, and clinical insomnia for scores of 6 or more [19,21,22].
The contradiction is more clear when comparing the abstract:
> [...] Results: Multiple regression analyses revealed that individuals with higher AIS scores had higher daily potassium intake; potassium at dinner was especially crucial. [...]
and section 3.2:
> 3.2. Association Between AIS Score and Dietary Patterns of Sodium and Potassium
> Multiple regression analysis was conducted to investigate the association between AIS scores and dietary patterns of sodium and potassium intake (Table 3). Total daily potassium intake was inversely associated with log AIS score (β = −0.036; p = 0.034). When intake at each meal (breakfast, lunch, dinner, and snacks) was analyzed separately, only potassium intake at dinner remained significantly associated with AIS score (β = −0.066; p = 0.003), suggesting that higher potassium intake at dinner may be linked to fewer sleep disturbances. No significant associations were observed for the sodium-to-potassium ratio.
I knew a guy that would eat a banana per beer. He would portion the bananas out beforehand, so we could tell he was serious when he showed up to a stag-do with two bunches!
Anecdotally, I always had much better sleep and mornings every time I remembered to eat a banana (or two!) before going to bed after a night of heavy drinking...
Two bananas to a potato (I assume we’re talking something like a russet, not a little red potato?) sounds generous to the potato, if we’re talking volume equivalence.
you can most definitely change the levels of components in a fried food.
the oil gets 'dirty' from extended use in frying. Why is it dirty? It's not dirt, and it's not oil breakdown (in most cases).
The oil is drawing components from the food into itself.
Forget the frying for a second; most fries are parboiled or blanched -- this also leeches material away from the vegetable, this time it leaves with the water used for blanching.
A french fry is delicious, but it's different than a potato -- even if it's made from one.
A temperature so hot that the atoms of the potato would violently collide into each other, probably at least tens of millions of degrees and you would need something to confine the potato plasma!
I don't know about the case of potassium specifically, but in general I thought that the bioavailability of elements can vary with different types of cooking?
There would still be potassium in there, unless it’s pulled out by the frying oil.
Elements can’t get lost in a chemical reaction. You can only change the molecule they’re part of, so it might not be processable by the human body, but the potassium isn’t going to disappear.
> Why would something being an element mean that heating it as part of a food wouldn’t act as a catalyst for some chemical interaction?
It sounds like the person thinks that chemical reactions can make elements change/disappear, which is not the case. And I specifically mentioned the Oil removing the potassium as an option.
I believe this too! My brother is not a fan bananas and barely registers mosquito bites. Me on the other hand am pursued mercilessly. Could also be we have different blood types but the immediate evidence we've seen is bananas :)
I sometimes buy evaporated because it is a big time-saver, but never sweetened condensed because it's quick and easy to add sugar myself, and leaves me in control of how much relative to the other ingredients.
Both are thicker, creamier, and even sweeter than milk - because even without the added sugar the natural sweetness of the milk is concentrated by the reduction, removing all that water.
Are there any studies on these studies? There are so many of them--and they're issued multiple times of day on television "news"--that there has to be one.
I systematically flag “diet” studies here. (And most medicine related, specially if not the study itself, but a random article with yellow title)
Some dietary studies are little better, some worse, but even the best, are very weak.
It’s known (from other studies, yes the irony) that people have no idea what they eat. Forget, don’t pay attention… so is difficult to draw conclusions. Also diet habits correlate to so many other habits, that is difficult to know what helps and what doesn’t.
Often is posted just a journalist view of it, not even the study (like this case) that is another red flag. Means that the article title is probably not so interesting.
Last but not least, being a forum of mainly CS nerds, you have to really weed through the comments. When speaking about law many start with “not a lawyer but” but seldom I see “not a doctor, but”. I’ve just seen too often people very opinionated about medicine topics of which they have no idea. Luckily is relatively easy to detect, but can be very misleading. The less the people know about something, the more sure they are they know it all. I need to state the obvious: never ever take medical advice at face value from HN.
IIUC, Na is used like signaling medium in body and alkaline metals that isn't Na tends to reduce blood pressure, slow heartbeat and neural activity. With that in mind, it sounds reasonable that those tendency could lead to slightly deeper sleep. Or is there something else to it?
The original website is a news report of an article. The one he posted is from a peer-reviewed journal which has a much higher standard of reporting. The information there is reported by scientists with expertise in the field. You cannot expect the same level of rigour from journalists that try to sensationalise findings to get more clicks.
News articles have a valid purpose of popularizing journal articles for the vast majority of people who will feel lost looking at a journal article directly.
A news article should be compared to another news article, not to a journal article. A journal article can however be compared with another journal article.
I understand that the journal article you linked might be superior.
Preventing light from reaching your eyes in the morning either via sleeping mask or good blinds + making sure there are no electric lights visible. In other words: sleeping in total darkness until you want to wake up.
The real shocking information I gained from this paper is that the AIS goes from 0-24 (0 = perfect sleep, 24 = total insomnia) and the study participants had an amazing average AIS score of 4.3 (SD 3.3)! Wow, how well all those people must sleep!
As someone scoring 12, it's pretty bad and I am suffering a lot while trying to sleep and during day time because I did not sleep well.
If my understanding of statistics, standard deviations and the standardized partial regression coefficient are correct, potassium supplementation in the evening only DECREASES this score by about 0.2178 (Beta −0.066, multiplied with SD of 3.3), which is kinda worthless.
It decreases the score. It doesn't increase the score. An increase would be harmful. The beta is negative. The abstract is wrong.
It is not worthless. For good sleep, potassium levels have to be adequate. Once one improves the level, one can move on to other factors.
As for what works for me, avoiding caffeine after 12 pm helps, as does sunlight exposure in the daytime.
With regard to a supplement stack, these help: collagen hydrolysate 12g, magnesium citrate, calcium, B6 as P5P, melatonin 4 mg, L-theanine 100-200 mg, and various sleep promoting herbs.
Ensure your BP is optimal, well below 120/80 for most people under 70.
Uncorrected acid reflux too worsens sleep, but avoiding consumption in the last three hours and also famotidine help.
The P5P form harms less if in excess. This is in contrast to the default form which is pyridoxine. I have found 20 mg of P5P twice daily to be quite useful for keeping stress spikes in check.
Regarding melatonin, newer data up to 2024 in https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38888087/ confirms that 4 mg is an optimal dose for sleep. For a discussion, search for this article on r/FoodNerds.
I have a bottle of potassium based salt substitute that I use to supplement K. Can anyone here clarify the pros/cons of this? It's quite wretched by itself, but if used very sparingly is not bad with many foods.
As I'm sure all know, K in supplemental form is FDA regulated and one would need to take up to 1/2 a bottle to reach the RDA, whereas in salt sub form a single, unpleasant serving can get close to the RDA. I think it's in chloride form...
You will remove the last listed “choice” from the list and “take” it (presumably one “takes” a podcast by watching it). After taking each choice, you will wait for 25 minutes, during which time you are expected to fall asleep. If you do not fall asleep in those 25 minutes you will repeat this process with the now-current last item in the list.
If the list is exhausted and you are still awake, you and the program terminate.
I take potassium capsules frequently and magnesium capsules whenever I smoke, which is occasionally. Both of them were effective and help me with reducing anxiety and relieving stress.
What isn't mentioned is that bananas and other potassium-rich foods are alkaline, and so can neutralize stomach acid reflux. Acid reflux is a common source of poor sleep quality. So that could be one explanation for the fewer sleep disturbances.
Reflux is solved by MORE acidity or promotion of stomach acid. Lower stomach acid PH means the LES doesn’t close properly. Seems counter intuitive but took me 8 years of symptoms to discover.
Not every case of reflux is caused by the same things. Some people's esophageal sphincter (such as mine does) just... decides to let go at random times. For me, that I can tell, the frequency of that happening isn't really affected +/- by the PH of my stomach acid, but the PH sure has an effect on the consequences.
I am assuming the best thing I can do for it is lose weight, but that's easier said than done.
If you've tried the traditional diet and exercise and couldn't stick to it, don't let the stigma around glp-1s keep you from taking to your doctor about them. They are a powerful tool. Really helped me
Look into vitamin K2.
I think this is true for a long term solution, but the standard treatment to alleviate symptoms of reflux is to consume antacids, so I think parent's point is still valid.
> Lower stomach acid PH means the LES doesn’t close properly
I don't think that's correct. Lower stomach acid pH makes the LES close more tightly, with a max around pH==3.
So proton pump inhibitors don't work? Nah
Whenever I see discussions of GERD I like to bring up this paper (and the reedit discussion around it) where they basically tried a supplement with every likely helper and it worked 100% of the time: https://www.reddit.com/r/GERD/comments/adt6vh/regression_of_...
| The aim of this study was to investigate if a dietary supplementation containing: melatonin, l-tryptophan, vitamin B6, folic acid, vitamin B12, methionine and betaine would help patients with GERD,
| All patients of the group A (100%) reported a complete regression of symptoms after 40 days of treatment. On the other hand, 115 subjects (65.7%) of the omeprazole reported regression of symptoms in the same period
Bananas have a pH of around 4.5 for unripe bananas to 6 for ripe bananas, so are acidic.
Huh. I am admittedly neither a doctor nor chemist, but I was told this by a doctor, and anecdotally bananas seem to help me with reflux. Looking on the web, there does seem to be conflicting advice.
I'd heard claims like that before and I was curious so I googled a bit more.
It sounds like there's this thing "PRAL" or "potential renal acid load" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_renal_acid_load where the affect on stomach acid can be different from a food's pH. But again, the wikipedia article links to some random people's blogs and a single research article from 2019. I'm not sure if this is well supported by research.
Exactly- this is based on how it alters urine pH, and there is a whole alternative medicine thing around assuming this is extremely important- but the entire idea seems unconvincing to me. Both stomach and blood pH are carefully regulated by feedback control and don’t themselves change much based on foods.
It is extreemly important because it is easy to measure and varies wildly based on concious decisions: things that make it easier to sell the snake oil. Blood pressure is another. Many a "tonic" of flavored alcohol seemingly cured symptoms of high blood pressure... long enough to make the sale.
I can see why the directly observable effect could help here, but what are these “alkaline diet” people selling exactly? I’ve mostly seen it just from individuals giving me unsolicited health advice. Also are these people really measuring the pH of their urine?
They are high in fibre and can thicken the fluid in the stomach. Maybe that's how they help.
It depends. There are varieties of bananas & plantains that are high in latex, and can cause reflux and allergies for some people.
I assume 99% of the bananas consumed in the US are Cavendish.
Acid reflux is due to too low stomach acid (too high pH). The lower esophageal sphincter closing as a response to acid (pH) is documented in the literature.
If reflux is the issue follow these tips:
1) Don't drink while eating or exercising, drink 30min before or 2 hours later.
2) Don't lay on your belly while sitting, use your back to support your upper body.
3) Drink just as much water as your body asks, but not more.
4) Right before going to bed, don't drink and try using the bathroom.
I'm having trouble understanding point 2. What does it mean for one to lay on their belly while sitting? That doesn't seem possible.
Slouching forward, crunching up your stomach and resting your weight on it.
In other words, good posture.
How about digestive bitters?
Alcohol is bad in general no matter the ailment
I wouldn't read too much into the title, the closing parts of the article give a much more balanced take on the whole issue. This study disagrees with some previous work and it's unclear which result makes sense and why. As usual, more research is needed, and while a catchy title is nice, this isn't anything to change your dietary habits by,
> this isn't anything to change your dietary habits by
But I already have k-intake.io registered, have hired a CTO for a potassium monitor wearable, app and data pipeline and am working on my pitch deck!
You may joke, but these folks have been promoting/investigating an all-potato diet, and have determine that maybe potassium is what's causing weight loss. https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2024/03/20/second-potato-riffs...
On one hand, if I squint hard enough, I can almost see it, but not exactly for the reasons they propose. Potatoes are infamous for having an extremely high satiety index, that is, you feel very full after eating them. If that holds, it would be easy to see how it could lead to weight loss, since you would feel full earlier and thus eat less.
All that aside, almost all of the results they show are deep within statistical error bounds. My weight easily varies 5lbs (2kg) within a week, saying you lost that amount after a month of diet doesn't really say much to me. I could weigh myself a week from now and say I lost that, then one week on and say I regained it.
I know this isn't related to potassium directly, but anecdotally I have had success using magnesium supplements for insomnia/improving general sleep quality. I have also been consuming electrolyte mixes containing potassium to help with muscle recovery from training, and have found them to help with physical soreness & general well-being.
I also take magnesium for sleep. I swear by it.
I also believe I have an underlying kidney disorder that was causing all sorts of subtle problems and after researching for years decided to try potassium supplements and it relieved the acute symptoms I was having (daytime sleepiness after meals) and also a whole slew of symptoms I didn’t realize I was having (poor workout performance and recovery, constant thirst from sodium/potassium imbalance, heart palpitations, especially at night when lying in bed, temperature regulation when trying to sleep, restless legs at night, and sleep quality).
Sleep was the most surprising. I used to wake at around 3am and just couldn’t get back to sleep. I still wake up to pee, but I get right back to sleep.
The single most surprising thing is the quality of my sleep. I now sleep like a rock. So unbelievably hard. And when I wake I feel so rested and more clear headed. I don’t need to sleep as many hours anymore and feel better than when i would sleep 9 hours.
Recently several sleep studies started talking about how sleep is not a passive activity, but a ‘washing’ of CSF over your brain. I could get some details wrong since I am going off of memory, but I believe the amount of CSF movement and production basically triples when you sleep. I hypothesize that this is simply your bodies way of cleaning the waste products out of your brain. Do you know what precursors are to create CSF? Electrolytes like sodium, potassium, chloride, and bicarbonate. It is my hypothesis that I was ‘using up’ all the potassium available with the first couple of sleep cycles and once it was gone I was unable to effectively create more CSF, rendering my sleep ineffective.
All I need to take is a couple of 99mg tablets right before bed (along with some magnesium chloride) and I sleep like I did when I was 10. I am 57. To say it has transformed my life would be an understatement.
I have every single one of your symptoms and arrived at almost the same conclusion: taking electrolytes tablets intended for workout recovery (just sodium, magnesium and potassium, no sugar) improves alleviates almost all of my symptoms and gives me energy I haven't had since I was 12. I haven't been able to get a doctor to take me seriously for ten years. I will try the potassium + magnesium tablets at night instead of a generic multivitamin. Thank you so much for your comment.
Do you have any additional information about this relationship between CSF and electrolyte deficiency? Do you know anything about possible upstream causes of electrolyte deficiency? Any pointers would be super helpful.
I also started with general “electrolytes” but found that one of my problems was that I was getting way too much sodium and not enough potassium. This was the primary driver of my post-meal somnolence. Most general electrolyte supplements are primarily sodium, and this was exacerbating my symptoms in some cases. I now only eat meals that have a reasonable amount of sodium and then take a couple of potassium tablets a couple of hours after eating if I feel myself starting to get a little sleepy. 30 minutes later I am ‘back to normal’, whereas I used to be sleepy for several hours as my body tried to bring my electrolytes back into balance. I also would have massive unquenchable thirst during this that I now don’t have.
I have read no studies that link CSF production with electrolyte deficiencies. This is a hypothesis of my own with no backing, so take it for what it is worth. Having said that, there have been many posts on HN on the recent studies on CSF https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39723704. I made the connection with CSF production and electrolytes when I was reading more about CSF production and it jumped off the page at me that potassium and other electrolytes are used to create CSF. It all just came together for me why taking potassium has helped me so much.
Sorry, you asked about ‘possible upstream causes of electrolyte deficiency’.
In my case I believe it is caused by an undiagnosed kidney problem loosely called ‘salt-wasting syndrome’. There are many types, but they all revolve around a genetic disorder where the tubules in your kidneys that are responsible for removing different electrolytes from the urine and retaining them are malformed and are not able to keep the electrolytes like a normal kidney does. Here are a few I found in my research:
-Bartters Syndrome- https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/bartters-syndrome/
Many different variants, so this is a possibility. Type 5?
-------------------------
-Gitelman syndrome- https://rarediseases.info.nih.gov/diseases/8547/gitelman-syn... Symptoms include tingling of face
————————
Fanconi Syndrome https://www.merckmanuals.com/home/kidney-and-urinary-tract-d...
I my particular case, I believe I have a type that does not impact sodium, but does potassium. When I eat a high sodium meal it causes me to pee a lot to try to get the my sodium levels back to normal. However, my body can’t retain potassium when it does this (and since I was eating much more sodium and much less potassium than my body required) I end up with normal sodium levels but low potassium levels. Taking potassium a few hours after a meal “fixed” this.
Short of genetic issue like this I am not sure what could cause it. I think this can be an early symptom of Diabetes, but don’t know much about that. What I am talking about here has got to be rare, so it may not be applicable to you.
Just another anecdote – when reading some of these links it made me remember another interesting symptom I used to have that I did not know was related: I would get “facial numbness”. Specifically, my lips and the immediate surrounding area would feel slightly numb. Usually in the morning after a poor night of sleep. I would remember feeling this on the way to work in the car. It would contribute to that dazed feeling I felt like I would swimming through a mental fog.
Oh, and one more! I also don’t get nearly so hung over from drinking! This was a surprise for me. I have always drank a lot of water while drinking alcohol, but I would always have the worst drained feeling the next day with such a headache. The headache would last all day. However, if I now take some potassium while drinking and throughout the night (depending on how much I drink), I often don’t have much of a hangover. This amazes me! I am 57 and used to drink a lot when I was in my 20’s. I had some friends that could be normal the next day and it always blew my mind. Now I think I know why. They have normal kidneys!
Which formulation of magnesium? And how long (days/weeks) of supplementation before you noticed a difference? Does it 'wear off' once you stop?
Not OP but the magnesium formulation recommended for sleep is usually magnesium glycinate or biglycinate, not the more common oxide or citrate.
https://www.sleepfoundation.org/magnesium
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/magnesium-types#9-Magne...
Not OP but I've had luck with zinc and magnesium aspartate supplements commonly available on Amazon. I take two caps that each are a net about 500mg an hour before bed, along with 1mg of melatonin.
Been doing this for a lot of years now.
You need to be a bit careful with zinc. A doctor friend of mine compiled a load of data showing most zinc supplements are contaminated with cadmium, which is cumulative. I'm not sure if he's published yet.
Edit, here's a paper by some other researchers: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0963748012005760...
Thanks for sharing- I find that these type of anecdotes often do work for other people, and are not information people can get from a doctor. I’m going to try what you suggest myself- I also tend to wake up at night and not fall back asleep, with no obvious explanation.
Cerebrospinal Fluid
Magnesium supplements are also really easy to overdo and the results are quite explosive.
Can you elaborate?
Magnesium is a common laxative in high doses. [https://www.drugs.com/mtm/milk-of-magnesia.html#:~:text=Milk....]
Magnesium Citrate and Oxide specifically.
Magnesium Glycinate is much less likely to be a problem in this way
The dose makes the poison. So use a mortar and pestle, or liquid supplements and an eyedropper.
My wife convinced me to take a bath with magnesium once when I was stressed.
Afterwards I got up, went to bed, and slept like an absolute rock.
That doesn’t tell you a lot. You would have to take a bath with and without magnesium, and without knowing whether it’s with or without magnesium, and then write down the effect for each bath.
Currently, it could just be the effect of the bath itself or placebo.
An interesting paper on transdermal magnesium:
Myth or Reality—Transdermal Magnesium? https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5579607/
The short story -- As of 2017 the jury is still out as to whether something like an Epsom salt bath may be beneficial because of the magnesium.
If you took a bath in hot water, that has its own effects on the body, as it will lower your blood pressure, it can also relax your muscles, so you need to try it out without the magnesium to see if it did anything.
Do you know what it actually does and how it does it?
What form of magnesium? It might mean something.
- https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4397399
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycine
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_glycinate
---
Mg also acts on GABAergic/genic systems directly, but its benefits as a general supplement on sleep are disputed.
Depends what you mean by 'general supplement' but a majority of people are deficient in magnesium (~400 mg/d is the recommendation) and its ubiquitous involvement in hundreds of enzyme systems might reasonably indicate that a positive role in normal sleep patterns could be expected as reported in a number of publications. If there is no benefit then other factors are likely to be to the fore.
Have you tried calcium glycinate next?
Magnesium supplements also help me sleep better.
I experience muscle cramps. (Not restless leg syndrome. It's complicated.)
For others, be aware that magnesium supplements come in many forms. I don't tolerate magnesium citrate, the most common over the counter option. Tummy issues. After trying a handful of options, I chose magnesium glycine; no adverse effects and reasonable price.
This is not medical advice. YMMV. Consult your doctors.
PSA: before you start supplementing potassium (or gorging on bananans or potatoes), please be aware that too moch potassium can lead to heart rhythm disturbances, and that some common medications (like anti-hypertensives) can have further predispose you to developing hyperkalemia.
While true, this is overblown. RDA for potassium intake is 3500-5000mg daily for an adult male. Most people do not get close to this amount. Potassium supplements are 99mg per pill. You have to take a lot of pills to reach that level. Getting too much potassium by eating potassium-rich foods would be difficult without an underlying kidney disorder.
Having said that, don’t be a dumb-a* and take too much of a good thing.
It depends on how you take it. If you chug almost liter of coconut water (like I did) you can get palpitations (like I did). That has >500mg potassium in a form more bioavailable than say a banana or butternut squash.
Also the RDA is not something you should have all at once. That’s a sure way to disrupt your heart.
A liter of coconut water also contains quite a bit of sugar, which might have contributed to your palpitations.
I've experienced palpitations after having Indian food, could coconut milk cause that?
Its common after eating certain kinds of foods.
https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22416-heart-p...
A medium sized potato has that amount, I doubt it’d be the coconut milk to blame. Also, coconut water != coconut milk
Point out the radiation dose from bananas to the fad dieter, see what that does.
For what it’s worth, it’s actually nothing.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_equivalent_dose
Hyperkalemia is most commonly encountered in patients with decreased kidney function.
Strangely the original study misstates the direction of the main finding, contradicting itself directly.
Is this a typo, or something more nefarious?
From the abstract:
From the body of the paper (supported by the results):That is true. From section 2.6 of the full-text:
> The sleep disturbances were assessed using the Athens Insomnia Scale [ 19], a self-administered psychometric questionnaire designed to evaluate sleep disorders, particularly insomnia [ 20 ]. It consists of eight items rated on a Likert scale ranging from 0 “no problem at all” to 3 “very severe” [ 20]. The total score ranges from 0 (absence of any sleep-related problems) to 24 (the most severe degree of insomnia). Severity is classified as normal for scores of 3 or less, subclinical insomnia for scores of greater than 3 but less than 6, and clinical insomnia for scores of 6 or more [19,21,22].
The contradiction is more clear when comparing the abstract:
> [...] Results: Multiple regression analyses revealed that individuals with higher AIS scores had higher daily potassium intake; potassium at dinner was especially crucial. [...]
and section 3.2:
> 3.2. Association Between AIS Score and Dietary Patterns of Sodium and Potassium > Multiple regression analysis was conducted to investigate the association between AIS scores and dietary patterns of sodium and potassium intake (Table 3). Total daily potassium intake was inversely associated with log AIS score (β = −0.036; p = 0.034). When intake at each meal (breakfast, lunch, dinner, and snacks) was analyzed separately, only potassium intake at dinner remained significantly associated with AIS score (β = −0.066; p = 0.003), suggesting that higher potassium intake at dinner may be linked to fewer sleep disturbances. No significant associations were observed for the sodium-to-potassium ratio.
One thing thata tired or rushed scientist trip up and writes the wrong sentence, but surely[1] a reviewer should catch such a grave mistake?
I mean it's a very short paper, and the main findings are repeated, so not like it's buried.
[1]: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7944958/
I'd trust table 3 and the general sentiment of the paper?
Learnt from my grandmother to eat plenty bananas before bedtime. It helped with my asthma and swear too that it did wonders for my sleep.
Usually had it with a hot curry at dinner time or dessert (sliced bananas, cubed apples and evaparoted milk.)
I knew a guy that would eat a banana per beer. He would portion the bananas out beforehand, so we could tell he was serious when he showed up to a stag-do with two bunches!
Oh man that’s a lot of bloat! Beer + sugar
Anecdotally, I always had much better sleep and mornings every time I remembered to eat a banana (or two!) before going to bed after a night of heavy drinking...
That is so many bananas
i don't drink anymore but if offered i'd down without hesitation a wells banana bread beer or banana beer. tasty stuff
Bananas aren't high in potassium. That's a myth. A banana has 450mg and a potato has 650mg.
Bananas have a decent amount of potassium per serving. A lot more than many foods. That’s not a myth.
The only myth is that bananas are a unique source of potassium. A lot of foods have similar or more amounts of potassium per serving or by weight.
Zuckerberg isn't rich. That's a myth. He had $200B and Elon has $450B.
Eloquent truth pointer right there! ;)
Come to think of it, you’re right. It was when he showed up with a big ol’ bag full of potatoes that we knew it was gonna be a serious party.
Can one simply stick to vodka, skip the potatoes, and reap all the benefits?
Fair enough, but I still prefer the banana. Just a little bit tastier than a raw potato.
Adding to that bananas are high in sugar. 12 to 15 grams each
Potatoes have almost double the glycemic index of a banana, meaning that the impact on metabolism and insulin production is greater and faster.
True, but just because fructose has a low GI doesn't make it good for you.
If it helps you sleep, a banana isn’t going to kill you. If it doesn’t help you sleep, then don’t eat a banana, that’s also okay.
Afaik if you cool the potatoes down to get resistant starch, the GI should be similar to a banana
How much does that potato weigh? The size of potatoes varies quite a bit
Two bananas to a potato (I assume we’re talking something like a russet, not a little red potato?) sounds generous to the potato, if we’re talking volume equivalence.
A potato’s a meal. A banana’s a lightish snack.
Per 100g ground beef is 300+mg of potassium
No carbs, no sugars, no fiber induced bloating, could easily get more than 100g into a meal
My understanding is potassium also competes with salt in the body
I've only ever been able to finish raw banana. I've tried raw potato but it was almost gag worthy.
The gagging reminds me, there aren’t many things that beat the smell of a rotting potato.
Sadly I don’t think French fries have the same effect.
Potassium is a chemical element, frying it won't change the potassium level.
you can most definitely change the levels of components in a fried food.
the oil gets 'dirty' from extended use in frying. Why is it dirty? It's not dirt, and it's not oil breakdown (in most cases).
The oil is drawing components from the food into itself.
Forget the frying for a second; most fries are parboiled or blanched -- this also leeches material away from the vegetable, this time it leaves with the water used for blanching.
A french fry is delicious, but it's different than a potato -- even if it's made from one.
I guess that depends how hot you fry it.
How hot would it need to be do fission a stable isotope of Potassium?
A temperature so hot that the atoms of the potato would violently collide into each other, probably at least tens of millions of degrees and you would need something to confine the potato plasma!
> confine the potato plasma
And once that's done, The Sims has almost loaded.
Maybe it’s fusion and potassium content increases?
I don't know about the case of potassium specifically, but in general I thought that the bioavailability of elements can vary with different types of cooking?
Why would something being an element mean that heating it as part of a food wouldn’t act as a catalyst for some chemical interaction?
There would still be potassium in there, unless it’s pulled out by the frying oil.
Elements can’t get lost in a chemical reaction. You can only change the molecule they’re part of, so it might not be processable by the human body, but the potassium isn’t going to disappear.
It's not going to dissappear, but it could dissolve into the cooking oil, leaving less in the finished product. This happens with boiling as well.
The fact that the element cannot physically vanish into thin air is not really relevant here
It is relevant because I replied to this:
> Why would something being an element mean that heating it as part of a food wouldn’t act as a catalyst for some chemical interaction?
It sounds like the person thinks that chemical reactions can make elements change/disappear, which is not the case. And I specifically mentioned the Oil removing the potassium as an option.
What it won't help with is mosquitos. They LOVE banana-flavored people.
Learned it from first hand experience.
I believe this too! My brother is not a fan bananas and barely registers mosquito bites. Me on the other hand am pursued mercilessly. Could also be we have different blood types but the immediate evidence we've seen is bananas :)
What do you get out of evaporated milk that you can't get from milk?
Its either sweeter or creamier. I always get evaporated and condensed mixed up.
Condensed milk is evaporated milk + added sugar.
I sometimes buy evaporated because it is a big time-saver, but never sweetened condensed because it's quick and easy to add sugar myself, and leaves me in control of how much relative to the other ingredients.
Both are thicker, creamier, and even sweeter than milk - because even without the added sugar the natural sweetness of the milk is concentrated by the reduction, removing all that water.
I’ve mixed them up too and that was the worst Mac and Cheese I ever made!
I once had mac and cheese where the usually-excellent cook mixed up the cheese sauce with the dessert custard.
The surprising bit is how far you can get into a meal that looks right before you realise it really is not.
tbh, really never look into it but according to my taste buds it pairs better than regular milk.
...plenty? That's at least more than 2 for me. Can you eat 3+ bananas in one sitting? Are we talking really small, average or big bananas?
Are there any studies on these studies? There are so many of them--and they're issued multiple times of day on television "news"--that there has to be one.
I systematically flag “diet” studies here. (And most medicine related, specially if not the study itself, but a random article with yellow title)
Some dietary studies are little better, some worse, but even the best, are very weak.
It’s known (from other studies, yes the irony) that people have no idea what they eat. Forget, don’t pay attention… so is difficult to draw conclusions. Also diet habits correlate to so many other habits, that is difficult to know what helps and what doesn’t.
Often is posted just a journalist view of it, not even the study (like this case) that is another red flag. Means that the article title is probably not so interesting.
Last but not least, being a forum of mainly CS nerds, you have to really weed through the comments. When speaking about law many start with “not a lawyer but” but seldom I see “not a doctor, but”. I’ve just seen too often people very opinionated about medicine topics of which they have no idea. Luckily is relatively easy to detect, but can be very misleading. The less the people know about something, the more sure they are they know it all. I need to state the obvious: never ever take medical advice at face value from HN.
I strongly recommend watching this video on the effect of potassium on cardiovascular disease (like stroke)!
Re-Balancing One Essential Nutrient to Protect against Stroke:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liW9F6gLwgQ
IIUC, Na is used like signaling medium in body and alkaline metals that isn't Na tends to reduce blood pressure, slow heartbeat and neural activity. With that in mind, it sounds reasonable that those tendency could lead to slightly deeper sleep. Or is there something else to it?
There are plenty of studies exploring this that don't come from weird websites.
A recent one:
- https://jcsm.aasm.org/doi/10.5664/jcsm.10168
Many, many more
What exactly is it that makes the website you linked not weird, and the original website weird?
The original website is a news report of an article. The one he posted is from a peer-reviewed journal which has a much higher standard of reporting. The information there is reported by scientists with expertise in the field. You cannot expect the same level of rigour from journalists that try to sensationalise findings to get more clicks.
News articles have a valid purpose of popularizing journal articles for the vast majority of people who will feel lost looking at a journal article directly.
A news article should be compared to another news article, not to a journal article. A journal article can however be compared with another journal article.
I understand that the journal article you linked might be superior.
Link to the study itself: https://doi.org/10.3390/nu17010148
Site fails to scroll with ublock in my browser/adguard on my network.
My main problem is waking up too early. Any silver bullet for that?
I had the same issue. Taking magnesium citrate 30 mins before bed fixed this completely. See also: https://examine.com/supplements/magnesium/
Going to bed a lot earlier. Some people just can’t sleep past a certain time no matter what.
For me, I'd have to get rid of my dog.
Which, at least for me would be a massive decline in quality of life.
Edibles can sometimes be effective
Fast.
If anything, increase the number of hours without eating before bed.
Preventing light from reaching your eyes in the morning either via sleeping mask or good blinds + making sure there are no electric lights visible. In other words: sleeping in total darkness until you want to wake up.
Go to bed later?
Move west...
Collagen hydrolysate (12 g) helps me sleep longer.
The real shocking information I gained from this paper is that the AIS goes from 0-24 (0 = perfect sleep, 24 = total insomnia) and the study participants had an amazing average AIS score of 4.3 (SD 3.3)! Wow, how well all those people must sleep!
As someone scoring 12, it's pretty bad and I am suffering a lot while trying to sleep and during day time because I did not sleep well.
If my understanding of statistics, standard deviations and the standardized partial regression coefficient are correct, potassium supplementation in the evening only DECREASES this score by about 0.2178 (Beta −0.066, multiplied with SD of 3.3), which is kinda worthless.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Just scored 14. May have a bit of a problem.
https://toolonline.net/en/AIS, https://www.med.upenn.edu/cbti/assets/user-content/documents...
It decreases the score. It doesn't increase the score. An increase would be harmful. The beta is negative. The abstract is wrong.
It is not worthless. For good sleep, potassium levels have to be adequate. Once one improves the level, one can move on to other factors.
As for what works for me, avoiding caffeine after 12 pm helps, as does sunlight exposure in the daytime.
With regard to a supplement stack, these help: collagen hydrolysate 12g, magnesium citrate, calcium, B6 as P5P, melatonin 4 mg, L-theanine 100-200 mg, and various sleep promoting herbs.
Ensure your BP is optimal, well below 120/80 for most people under 70.
Uncorrected acid reflux too worsens sleep, but avoiding consumption in the last three hours and also famotidine help.
> It decreases the score.
Yes DECREASE instead of INCREASE. What I was going for in my head was "improve" I guess. Thanks for pointing that out.
> B6 as P5P
Don't forget it's one of the few nutrients that accumulates and that you can get too much of. It causes nerve damage and mystery sores.
> melatonin 4 mg
That's probably too much:
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/E4cKD9iTWHaE7f3AJ/melatonin-...
The P5P form harms less if in excess. This is in contrast to the default form which is pyridoxine. I have found 20 mg of P5P twice daily to be quite useful for keeping stress spikes in check.
Regarding melatonin, newer data up to 2024 in https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38888087/ confirms that 4 mg is an optimal dose for sleep. For a discussion, search for this article on r/FoodNerds.
I have a bottle of potassium based salt substitute that I use to supplement K. Can anyone here clarify the pros/cons of this? It's quite wretched by itself, but if used very sparingly is not bad with many foods.
As I'm sure all know, K in supplemental form is FDA regulated and one would need to take up to 1/2 a bottle to reach the RDA, whereas in salt sub form a single, unpleasant serving can get close to the RDA. I think it's in chloride form...
Edit: fsckin android keypad
choices = [
]while choices and not sleep:
Could you elaborate this?
You will remove the last listed “choice” from the list and “take” it (presumably one “takes” a podcast by watching it). After taking each choice, you will wait for 25 minutes, during which time you are expected to fall asleep. If you do not fall asleep in those 25 minutes you will repeat this process with the now-current last item in the list. If the list is exhausted and you are still awake, you and the program terminate.
But what is the underlying science for these substances?
I dunno, I was just interpreting their pseudo-code.
[dead]
I haven't heard of potassium before.
I take potassium capsules frequently and magnesium capsules whenever I smoke, which is occasionally. Both of them were effective and help me with reducing anxiety and relieving stress.
It's often called Kalium internationally. The atomic symbol is Ka.
Um actually it’s K.
(After the um actually quiz show)
You are right. I was half thinking of natium, Na.
Po in the periodic system. At least for Americans ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I sure hope you aren't consuming Po. It's usually only consumed by targets of Russian assassination.
A teaspoonful of Po in your tea, and all your problems with insomnia will be solved forever.
Well there goes my hopes of marketing potooooo ooo with a horse logo. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42729604
K.